[Evan1]

Given the initial Equinox EV orders will start delivering by December, I expect reviewer test drives of the 2RS will be this year. My guess is they will start popping up in about 6 months around June.

I have a feeling it will be a great car. But some of the buzzard and vulture car reviewers will attack it like raw meat in the desert and bring up all the negatives.

 

[Mapleev]

Turns out the airbag icon on my wife’s 2009 Honda Fit that was on due to rodent damage to wiring. Despite working like new and in good condition, it is looking like the insurance company will write off the car being a 2009 car.

We may decide to be a one vehicle family until the Equinox EV comes out. That makes its arrival a little more urgent, but whether it is 14 months or 18 months away for the 3LT, we can wait. I will check out the 2RS for price and options to make it 3LT like, but my preference is the 3LT.

 

[Evan1]

Turns out the airbag icon on my wife’s 2009 Honda Fit that was on due to rodent damage to wiring. Despite working like new and in good condition, it is looking like the insurance company will write off the car being a 2009 car.

We may decide to be a one vehicle family until the Equinox EV comes out. That makes its arrival a little more urgent, but whether it is 14 months or 18 months away for the 3LT, we can wait. I will check out the 2RS for price and options to make it 3LT like, but my preference is the 3LT.

Wire chafing can be a nightmare but is replaceable. Next time put some cheese elsewhere. lol

 

[Steverino]

I always liked the Honda Fit space wagon. It packed a lot of bang for the buck. Sad to see it discontinued in USA after 2020.

 

[EVnowornever]

Given the initial Equinox EV orders will start delivering by December, I expect reviewer test drives of the 2RS will be this year. My guess is they will start popping up in about 6 months around June.

So we really shouldn't call the 2RS a 2023 fall debut. GM should of just said "all trim levels come out in 2024" and just leave it at that. Wouldn't be surprised if base model is delivered in August on later in 2024. On the plus side if some wants to wait for eternity to get a Equinox EV, they probably will see lower interest rates come 2024. But then there's always the chance GM jacks the price higher due to production cost overruns.

Lastly with Tesla cutting prices, that $35,000 to $38,000 2024 Equinox might just have a hell of a lot of competition (price wise) come 2024. Yea I know Tesla does not make a SUV, so I'm just talking EV's in general. Recession, high interest rates, slow down in EV sales, all bode well for vehicle price cuts. So just don't think GM will have the mid $30,000 range covered come 2024 for SUV's or any EV for that matter. Competition will pick up as EV makers struggle to show a profit.

 

[hellsop]

Lastly with Tesla cutting prices, that $35,000 to $38,000 2024 Equinox might just have a hell of a lot of competition (price wise) come 2024. Yea I know Tesla does not make a SUV, so I'm just talking EV's in general. Recession, high interest rates, slow down in EV sales, all bode well for vehicle price cuts. So just don't think GM will have the mid $30,000 range covered come 2024 for SUV's or any EV for that matter. Competition will pick up as EV makers struggle to show a profit.

Tesla's price cuts put the absolutely cheapest Tesla you can buy to $44k. That's a cut, but it's about the same price as the top trim Equinox EV. I don't see it putting a lot of price pressure on Chevy there. If Tesla could actually produce a $35k Model 3 as they said years ago, it might be competition, but for right now? Nope. This isn't an affordability competition with Tesla. Other manufacturers might have cars that play in this <$40k price point (like Nissan and Volkswagen), but Tesla Is Not One Of Them. A Model X costs 20% more than a schmegegge Hummer EV, the poster child for GM's EV extravagant nonsense.

 

[EVnowornever]

Tesla's price cuts put the absolutely cheapest Tesla you can buy to $44k. That's a cut, but it's about the same price as the top trim Equinox EV. I don't see it putting a lot of price pressure on Chevy there. If Tesla could actually produce a $35k Model 3 as they said years ago, it might be competition, but for right now? Nope. This isn't an affordability competition with Tesla. Other manufacturers might have cars that play in this <$40k price point (like Nissan and Volkswagen), but Tesla Is Not One Of Them. A Model X costs 20% more than a schmegegge Hummer EV, the poster child for GM's EV extravagant nonsense.

Agree - I was just pointing out that Tesla was forced to cut prices in an effort to increase sales. Stock has taken a major pounding. Other car manufacturers might also have to follow suit. EV's are so over-priced that manufacturers might not meet their sale targets for 2023 and 2024. High interest rates + recession does not bode well for high priced EV makers. In any case I think sweet spot for future EV's is $30,000 to $40,000 and not $65,000 to $80,000. Look at Rivian. Makes a great truck but its overpriced. Maybe if battery prices come down and mass EV production kicks in, overall prices will drop. But for now most EV's prices are in "nose bleed" territory. Even with Tesla price cut.

 

[obermd]

Agree - I was just pointing out that Tesla was forced to cut prices in an effort to increase sales. Stock has taken a major pounding. Other car manufacturers might also have to follow suit. EV's are so over-priced that manufacturers might not meet their sale targets for 2023 and 2024. High interest rates + recession does not bode well for high priced EV makers. In any case I think sweet spot for future EV's is $30,000 to $40,000 and not $65,000 to $80,000. Look at Rivian. Makes a great truck but its overpriced. Maybe if battery prices come down and mass EV production kicks in, overall prices will drop. But for now most EV's prices are in "nose bleed" territory. Even with Tesla price cut.

Actually, Tesla reduced prices to get the Model Y, which is their best selling vehicle, under the price cap for IRA tax credits.

 

[Steverino]

Actually, Tesla reduced prices to get the Model Y, which is their best selling vehicle, under the price cap for IRA tax credits.

And that $7500 tax credit option expires end of March unless the car battery materials meet the domestic sourcing requirement. I don't know if they do.

 

[EVnowornever]

Actually, Tesla reduced prices to get the Model Y, which is their best selling vehicle, under the price cap for IRA tax credits.

Nope - Tesla cut prices to try to sell as many EV as they could before the year ran out. They had to cut prices and try to hit their numbers. Musk failed on both accounts. Dropping prices hurt revenue as Tesla missed big time on China sales. And Tesla will miss target numbers in U.S. - big time due to competition. GM stock at $35. Should be higher but stuck in mud.

 

[Steverino]

GM stock at $35. Should be higher but stuck in mud.

Wall Street still views GM as a "dividend" stock rather than a meme stock like Tesla.

GM (Mary Barra and team) keep trying to change that narrative, even had a bunch of analysts come in and see all the work they are doing on autonomous cars (Cruise Automation), the EV initiatives (Ultium, the EV rollouts), and they downgraded the stock because they can't see GM doing what they are clearly doing. Until GM has more EV models out there in 2023, 2024, 2025 the analysts just see GM as an ICE truck builder, but not an EV innovator "like Tesla". I think that perception will change, but not for another year or two. Assuming GM continues to execute of course.

The thing with Tesla is they are always late, their after sale service seems to be sub-par (GM dealers have seen an increase is servicing Teslas), their models are old, and Musk has a big mouth. Now many, many car companies are starting to ramp up their EV offerings. There will be lots of alternatives to Tesla. Of course if you read the Tesla fan club comments Tesla is the only car company that remains after all the others are gone because they could not figure out how to EV innovate. I think the only major advantage Tesla has is the charging stations, but the public and private networks are expanding so that advantage is slipping.

 

[MaybeFutureBuyer]

Wall Street still views GM as a "dividend" stock rather than a meme stock like Tesla.

GM (Mary Barra and team) keep trying to change that narrative, even had a bunch of analysts come in and see all the work they are doing on autonomous cars (Cruise Automation), the EV initiatives (Ultium, the EV rollouts), and they downgraded the stock because they can't see GM doing what they are clearly doing. Until GM has more EV models out there in 2023, 2024, 2025 the analysts just see GM as an ICE truck builder, but not an EV innovator "like Tesla". I think that perception will change, but not for another year or two. Assuming GM continues to execute of course.

The thing with Tesla is they are always late, their after sale service seems to be sub-par (GM dealers have seen an increase is servicing Teslas), their models are old, and Musk has a big mouth. Now many, many car companies are starting to ramp up their EV offerings. There will be lots of alternatives to Tesla. Of course if you read the Tesla fan club comments Tesla is the only car company that remains after all the others are gone because they could not figure out how to EV innovate. I think the only major advantage Tesla has is the charging stations, but the public and private networks are expanding so that advantage is slipping.

Yep. I would choose GM over a Tesla any day of the week, even at the same price!

I won't buy anything Conman Musk is selling. The guy promised 30 different technologies, and was proven to be deliberately deceitful.

Also, no dealerships? No money! I'll take a vast network of dealers over a vast network of chargers.

 

[Steverino]

I'll take a vast network of dealers over a vast network of chargers.

I agree, Maybe. Both have their advantages of course. A reliable charging network for long road trips is still a concern for would-be EV buyers, and Tesla has the edge there at least for now. Of course it also depends on the amount of long road trips you take. For me, not many, so a national charging network is a nice to have not need to have. YMMV

But yes, a dealer network does offer advantages (and some disadvantages - watch out for stealerships) for having my car serviced locally. I have at least 3 Chevy dealers that are local, compared to 7 Tesla centers in the entire state.

 

[obermd]

And that $7500 tax credit option expires end of March unless the car battery materials meet the domestic sourcing requirement. I don't know if they do.

Telsa has started selling Model Ys with their 4860 battery, which is made in the US.

 

[Steverino]

Telsa has started selling Model Ys with their 4860 battery, which is made in the US.

Where do the raw materials come from?

 

[obermd]

Where do the raw materials come from?

That I don't know. I don't think the IRA specifies the raw materials sourcing though.

 

[Steverino]

What I'm finding:

Specifically, the bill requires (Part 4, Sec. 13401. subsection (e)(1)(A)) that the “percentage of the value” of the applicable battery critical minerals (as defined later in the bill) extracted or processed in the US or a US free-trade partner or recycled in North America, be:

• 40% for a vehicle placed in service before 1 January 2024;
• 50% for a vehicle placed in the service during calendar year 2024;
• 60% for a vehicle placed in service during calendar year 2025;
• 70% for a vehicle placed in service during calendar year 2026; and
• 80% for a vehicle placed in service after 31 December 2026.
• 100% requirement for vehicles placed in service after 31 December 2028

The bill places similar restrictions on the percentage of value of the components, but leading up to a 100% requirement for vehicles placed in service after 31 December 2028.

The bill defines a list of applicable critical minerals:

• Aluminum converted from bauxite to a minimum purity of 99% alumina by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.9 percent aluminum by mass.
• Antimony converted to antimony trisulfide concentrate with a minimum purity of 90% antimony trisulfide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.65% antimony by mass.
• Barite which is barium sulfate purified to a minimum purity of 80% barite by mass.
• Beryllium which is converted to copper-beryllium master alloy, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% beryllium by mass.
• Cerium which is converted to cerium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% cerium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% cerium by mass.
• Cesium which is converted to cesium formate or cesium carbonate, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% cesium by mass.
• Chromium which is converted to ferrochromium consisting of not less than 60% chromium by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% chromium by mass.
• Cobalt which is converted to cobalt sulfate, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.6% cobalt by mass.
• Dysprosium which is converted to not less than 99%t pure dysprosium iron alloy by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% dysprosium by mass.
• Europium which is converted to europium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% europium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% by mass.
• Fluorspar which is converted to fluorspar which is purified to a minimum purity of 97% calcium fluoride by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% fluorspar by mass.
• Gadolinium which is converted to gadolinium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% gadolinium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% gadolinium by mass.
• Germanium which converted to germanium tetra-chloride, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.99% germanium by mass.
• Graphite which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% graphitic carbon by mass.
• Indium which is converted to indium tin oxide, or indium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% indium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% indium by mass.
• Lithium which is converted to lithium carbonate or lithium hydroxide, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% lithium by mass.
• Manganese which is converted to manganese sulphate, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.7% manganese by mass.
• Neodymium which is converted to neodymium-praseodymium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99% neodymium-praseodymium oxide by mass, converted to neodymium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.5% neodymium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% neodymium by mass.
• Nickel which is converted to nickel sulphate, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% nickel by mass.
• Niobium which is converted to ferronibium, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% niobium by mass.
• Tellurium which is converted to cadmium telluride, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% tellurium by mass.
• Tin which is purified to low alpha emitting tin which has a purity of greater than 99.99% by mass, and possesses an alpha emission rate of not greater than 0.01 counts per hour per centimeter square.
• Tungsten which is converted to ammonium paratungstate or ferrotungsten.
• Vanadium which is converted to ferrovanadium or vanadium pentoxide.
• Yttrium which is converted to yttrium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.999% yttrium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% yttrium by mass.
• Any of the following other minerals, provided that such mineral is purified to a minimum purity of 99% by mass: Arsenic; Bismuth; Erbium; Gallium; Hafnium; Holmium; Iridium; Lanthanum; Lutetium; Magnesium; Palladium; Platinum; Praseodymium; Rhodium; Rubidium; Ruthenium; Samarium; Scandium; Tantalum; Terbium; Thulium; Titanium; Ytterbium; Zinc; and Zirconium.

 

[EVnowornever]

What I'm finding:

Specifically, the bill requires (Part 4, Sec. 13401. subsection (e)(1)(A)) that the “percentage of the value” of the applicable battery critical minerals (as defined later in the bill) extracted or processed in the US or a US free-trade partner or recycled in North America, be:

• 40% for a vehicle placed in service before 1 January 2024;
• 50% for a vehicle placed in the service during calendar year 2024;
• 60% for a vehicle placed in service during calendar year 2025;
• 70% for a vehicle placed in service during calendar year 2026; and
• 80% for a vehicle placed in service after 31 December 2026.
• 100% requirement for vehicles placed in service after 31 December 2028

The bill places similar restrictions on the percentage of value of the components, but leading up to a 100% requirement for vehicles placed in service after 31 December 2028.

The bill defines a list of applicable critical minerals:

• Aluminum converted from bauxite to a minimum purity of 99% alumina by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.9 percent aluminum by mass.
• Antimony converted to antimony trisulfide concentrate with a minimum purity of 90% antimony trisulfide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.65% antimony by mass.
• Barite which is barium sulfate purified to a minimum purity of 80% barite by mass.
• Beryllium which is converted to copper-beryllium master alloy, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% beryllium by mass.
• Cerium which is converted to cerium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% cerium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% cerium by mass.
• Cesium which is converted to cesium formate or cesium carbonate, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% cesium by mass.
• Chromium which is converted to ferrochromium consisting of not less than 60% chromium by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% chromium by mass.
• Cobalt which is converted to cobalt sulfate, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.6% cobalt by mass.
• Dysprosium which is converted to not less than 99%t pure dysprosium iron alloy by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% dysprosium by mass.
• Europium which is converted to europium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% europium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% by mass.
• Fluorspar which is converted to fluorspar which is purified to a minimum purity of 97% calcium fluoride by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% fluorspar by mass.
• Gadolinium which is converted to gadolinium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% gadolinium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% gadolinium by mass.
• Germanium which converted to germanium tetra-chloride, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.99% germanium by mass.
• Graphite which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% graphitic carbon by mass.
• Indium which is converted to indium tin oxide, or indium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% indium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% indium by mass.
• Lithium which is converted to lithium carbonate or lithium hydroxide, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% lithium by mass.
• Manganese which is converted to manganese sulphate, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.7% manganese by mass.
• Neodymium which is converted to neodymium-praseodymium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99% neodymium-praseodymium oxide by mass, converted to neodymium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.5% neodymium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% neodymium by mass.
• Nickel which is converted to nickel sulphate, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% nickel by mass.
• Niobium which is converted to ferronibium, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% niobium by mass.
• Tellurium which is converted to cadmium telluride, or purified to a minimum purity of 99% tellurium by mass.
• Tin which is purified to low alpha emitting tin which has a purity of greater than 99.99% by mass, and possesses an alpha emission rate of not greater than 0.01 counts per hour per centimeter square.
• Tungsten which is converted to ammonium paratungstate or ferrotungsten.
• Vanadium which is converted to ferrovanadium or vanadium pentoxide.
• Yttrium which is converted to yttrium oxide which is purified to a minimum purity of 99.999% yttrium oxide by mass, or purified to a minimum purity of 99.9% yttrium by mass.
• Any of the following other minerals, provided that such mineral is purified to a minimum purity of 99% by mass: Arsenic; Bismuth; Erbium; Gallium; Hafnium; Holmium; Iridium; Lanthanum; Lutetium; Magnesium; Palladium; Platinum; Praseodymium; Rhodium; Rubidium; Ruthenium; Samarium; Scandium; Tantalum; Terbium; Thulium; Titanium; Ytterbium; Zinc; and Zirconium.

Good find and if I read the above correctly (might be off here) purchase of Equinox EV in 2024 (purchase/delivery) would allow buyer to get a tax credit of $1875 for GM battery and then possibe $3750 tax credit for purchase of North American made EV. So total of $5625? Honestly since Congress passed the electric vehicle tax credit in 2022, it's crazy to think in 2024 buyers of EV's made in North American can't cash in for full tax credit or $7,500. But if I can walk with say $5,625 that won't hurt.

 

[Steverino]

it's crazy to think in 2024 buyers of EV's made in North American can't cash in for full tax credit or $7,500. But if I can walk with say $5,625 that won't hurt.

What's crazier is that commercial companies like those that lease cars can claim the full $7500 regardless of the content requirement. Now, whether they will pass along the full $7500 to you in the lease is another question. They can keep it all if they want.

 

[obermd]

Nice find. Note, however, that the statement is "extracted or processed", which means the raw material can be mined elsewhere as long as the processing occurs in the US, Canada, or Mexico.