Chevy Equinox EV Forum banner

Letter to Mary Barra

2028 Views 67 Replies 16 Participants Last post by  Steverino
I've been thinking about the removal of the projection subsystem in Android Automotive for GM's upcoming EVs and sent the following to [email protected] on Sunday. What I didn't want to do was send a "whine" letter, but rather one that made product improvement suggestions that would benefit GM's bottom line while giving GM's customers more control over their vehicles.

==========
Subject: Removal of Android Auto/Apple Car Play in Ultium EVs

Dear CEO Barra,

The removal of the projection systems for Android and Apple is a mistake. Given that the cell phone industry is continuing to push for higher and higher speeds and that there is limited bandwidth available, this means that current cell phone networks will be replaced. This has occurred at least twice since OnStar was first deployed and GM United States has never offered a way to upgrade the OnStar cellular receiver/transmitter in their vehicles. GM Canada did offer to upgrade for a price the vehicles in Canada during this last network upgrade.

While I understand GM’s desire to ensure they receive telemetry for product improvement, this can be done without requiring an OnStar account. I also understand that as they currently sit, the mobile device versions of Google Maps and Apple Maps are unable to provide some of the information vehicle integrated mapping software can provide. However, rather than take away the ability to run a cell phone powered map via projection, provide this feature as an added cost item (not too much).

In fact, knowing that there is a significant portion of the population that doesn’t want to have GM, or any other automotive manufacturer, to receive telemetry from their vehicles, here’s a proposal that would bring in some more money for GM and keep everyone reasonably happy:
  • Base price includes full OnStar with navigation – If the cell network upgrades during the initial or any subsequent subscription OnStar pays to replace the cell network interface.
  • Additional cost, not more than $100 - $200 US, add the projection systems back to the vehicle. Android Automotive supports projection systems natively and GM is having to explicitly remove this feature.
  • Additional cost, $500 - $1,000 USD – removal of all telemetry from the vehicle via a special OnStar module that doesn’t contain . This gives those who don’t want any telemetry from the vehicle a way to purchase this feature.
Also, below is my list of GM cars from my first vehicle in 1985:

1985 Pontiac Fiero 2M4, traded for a Fiero GT after 8,000 miles because I didn’t trust the engine. About a month later the first media reports of Fiero 2M4 engine bay fires started showing up.
1985 Pontiac Fiero GT, traded for a Pontiac Transport when it no longer met the needs of a new parent.
1990 Pontiac Transport, traded for a Pontiac Montana after 240,000 miles when my kids got tall enough they needed higher backed seats.
2002 Pontiac Montana AWD, traded after 186,000 miles for a 2012 Chevy Cruze LS for my son’s college graduation.
2012 Chevy Cruze ECO, destroyed by hail after 103,500 miles.
2017 Chevy Volt LT, purchased partly with the insurance check from the Cruze ECO and my current vehicle.

The 2024 Equinox EV 2LT was my number one choice to replace the Volt, but with the removal of the projection system from the vehicle, it is now at the bottom of the list while I look at other options.

Sincerely,
Michael Ober
Colorado
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: 5
21 - 40 of 68 Posts
The best part about it all everyone set them up for a t-ball-style hit and instead they whiffed by doubling down on their stupidity and loosing a ton of sales.

Side note, i already got my deposit back from my dealer, so until they bring carplay or someone hacks it for carplay i won't have a gm ev
How many is a "ton" of sales, CarPlay user? How do we know how many are "lost" given the car is not for sale as yet? I note that lack of Car Play does not seem to have hindered Tesla or Rivian sales.

On the other hand, given that at least some potential sales (including yours) will be lost, will that make it easier for me to get an Equinox EV and at a good price?
  • Like
Reactions: 1
How many is a "ton" of sales, CarPlay user? How do we know how many are "lost" given the car is not for sale as yet? I note that lack of Car Play does not seem to have hindered Tesla or Rivian sales.

On the other hand, given that at least some potential sales (including yours) will be lost, will that make it easier for me to get an Equinox EV and at a good price?
If you're to believe what everyone says that had deposits down for the blazer/equinox and in some cases, Silverado (even though that will have carplay) got their deposits back already that's lost sales/money before the cars even hit the lot.

Doubt me getting my deposit back has any impact on your price, i was at a MSRP only dealer.

Tesla and Rivian never had the option of car play, if they had it and then ripped it away from customers I'm sure that would turn a ton of people away. You're also talking about the best charging infrastructure for one and the only true offroad/adventure ev currently on market for the other.
that's lost sales/money before the cars even hit the lot
It wasn't GM's money, nor the dealers so not really lost. But if lots of potential buyers walk away, then there will be less incentive to dealers to play Ford Lightning dealer markup games. For a first year car I have always been expecting to pay MSRP regardless. So for selfish reasons I'm kinda hoping a bunch of people follow you out the door, carplay user. ;) Should make it easier for me to get the Equinox EV.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
Heh. I'm honestly hoping to be paying no more than MSRP.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
Heh. I'm honestly hoping to be paying no more than MSRP.
That's why I'm hoping many follow CarPlay user and bail. Less demand = better chance of getting the car at a reasonable price.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
That's why I'm hoping many follow CarPlay user and bail. Less demand = better chance of getting the car at a reasonable price.
me too
The best part about it all everyone set them up for a t-ball-style hit and instead they whiffed by doubling down on their stupidity and loosing a ton of sales.

Side note, i already got my deposit back from my dealer, so until they bring carplay or someone hacks it for carplay i won't have a gm ev
Good on you!
I am still contemplating if I want to make them just not profit (take deposit back), or make them LOSE money by getting the 1LT, which they already admitted will be a "loss leader", covered by the profits from higher trims. My original plan was to get the 2LT or 3LT.
When the Volt came out many said they would not buy it because it lacked a sunroof. A sunroof was a must have for a car. I survived without one. For others, power seats were a must have. Cars are a combination of style, price, performance. Usually the buyer makes a choice based on a car that fits the majority of needs as few cars fit all the needs especially when looking for a lower price range.

For me, the Ultium platform (or another similar) is a must have. I keep cars a long time. I know from my Volt experience what happens when the battery starts having issues in years 10+. As batteries age, some cells can drop below "healthy" which can lead to the car being undriveable. People with perfectly good Volts are scrambling to try to find replacement batteries (or sections or modules). If the Volt used the Ultium platform, swapping in a new modules would be the answer and it would;d address a host of technical issues as well.

I'd rather have a car that's engineered to address battery aging gracefully. Tesla's approach is to replace the entire battery at a significant cost. Most of the other EV makers seem to be ignoring the potential "my 12 year old car is dead and must be junked because it was not designed to enable module replacements" issue.

Now if you plan to sell the car before the battery warranty is up (8 years, 100k miles whichever comes first), no need to worry about battery maintenance after warranty. That's also before you'd need to subscribe for continuing in dash navigation :)
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: 2
When the Volt came out many said they would not buy it because it lacked a sunroof. A sunroof was a must have for a car. I survived without one. For others, power seats were a must have. Cars are a combination of style, price, performance. Usually the buyer makes a choice based on a car that fits the majority of needs as few cars fit all the needs especially when looking for a lower price range.

For me, the Ultium platform (or another similar) is a must have. I keep cars a long time. I know from my Volt experience what happens when the battery starts having issues in years 10+. As batteries age, some cells can drop below "healthy" which can lead to the car being undriveable. People with perfectly good Volts are scrambling to try to find replacement batteries (or sections or modules). If the Volt used the Ultium platform, swapping in a new modules would be the answer and it would;d address a host of technical issues as well.

I'd rather have a car that's engineered to address battery aging gracefully. Tesla's approach is to replace the entire battery at a significant cost. Most of the other EV makers seem to be ignoring the potential "my 12 year old car is dead and must be junked because it was not designed to enable module replacements" issue.

Now if you plan to sell the car before the battery warranty is up (8 years, 100k miles whichever comes first), no need to worry about battery maintenance after warranty. That's also before you'd need to subscribe for continuing in dash navigation :)
And this is why I haven't completely removed the Equinox EV from my consideration. I've used my phone screen for navigation in the past and if I can figure out how to mount it I'm willing to use it again in this mode. My biggest real concern is that GM will again ignore the issue of upgrading the OnStar cellular radio hardware when (not if) the cell network discontinues current 3 and 4G networks. This has actually happened to me - my 2002 Montana lost OnStar access because of a cell network upgrade and if my 2012 Cruze hadn't been totaled it would have lost OnStar access when the 3G network was shut down a couple of years ago.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
For me, the Ultium platform (or another similar) is a must have. I keep cars a long time. I know from my Volt experience what happens when the battery starts having issues in years 10+. As batteries age, some cells can drop below "healthy" which can lead to the car being undriveable. People with perfectly good Volts are scrambling to try to find replacement batteries (or sections or modules). If the Volt used the Ultium platform, swapping in a new modules would be the answer and it would;d address a host of technical issues as well.
This might be off topic but there's one thing that's buggin me with this battery module swapping concept. I always have the impression that mixing new and old batteries isn't advisable. Is this not applicable to rechargeable batteries? Or maybe this new battery tech could finally solve this conundrum.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
This might be off topic but there's one thing that's buggin me with this battery module swapping concept. I always have the impression that mixing new and old batteries isn't advisable. Is this not applicable to rechargeable batteries? Or maybe this new battery tech could finally solve this conundrum.
I think each module has its own controller so it can adjust the output individually for each module. I will try and find the video that explains it better.
  • Like
Reactions: 3
And this is why I haven't completely removed the Equinox EV from my consideration. I've used my phone screen for navigation in the past and if I can figure out how to mount it I'm willing to use it again in this mode. My biggest real concern is that GM will again ignore the issue of upgrading the OnStar cellular radio hardware when (not if) the cell network discontinues current 3 and 4G networks. This has actually happened to me - my 2002 Montana lost OnStar access because of a cell network upgrade and if my 2012 Cruze hadn't been totaled it would have lost OnStar access when the 3G network was shut down a couple of years ago.
All of GM's Ultium EVs use 5G Cell Network.
Agreed, they not likely going to change things but they do need to know the impact that decision is going to have on people who are/were considering one of their new EVs.
I currently have aBolt and was looking to add an Equinox when they come out, but without CarPlay, I will buy something else! The Model 3 is looking better every day!
All of GM's Ultium EVs use 5G Cell Network.
True 5G doesn't exist outside major metropolitan areas. The coverage range for 5G is simply too small from each tower. At best they can be using 4G or 5G "extended range", which is really 4G on the 5G frequencies, as an option where available, but more likely they're using 3G since 4G coverage is spotty once you leave the interstate system. Now I can see SuperCruise requiring 4G due to bandwidth requirements.
I think each module has its own controller so it can adjust the output individually for each module. I will try and find the video that explains it better.
Correct. Each module wirelessly connect to the car. This makes "mix & match" a non-issue. The big unknown is what a dealer will charge in say, 12 years to replace an Ultium brick with whatever is currently coming out of the factory, or from a recycled battery (used).
  • Like
Reactions: 3
How many is a "ton" of sales, CarPlay user? How do we know how many are "lost" given the car is not for sale as yet? I note that lack of Car Play does not seem to have hindered Tesla or Rivian sales.

On the other hand, given that at least some potential sales (including yours) will be lost, will that make it easier for me to get an Equinox EV and at a good price?
Rivian got Car play a while ago. Lucid also now as Car Play (I know Chevy doesn’t compete with Lucid on any level). Tesla so far has resisted pressure on Car Play. Three friends of mine that own Tesla model 3 all would love Car Play, but no car is perfect.
Rivian got Car play a while ago. Lucid also now as Car Play (I know Chevy doesn’t compete with Lucid on any level). Tesla so far has resisted pressure on Car Play. Three friends of mine that own Tesla model 3 all would love Car Play, but no car is perfect.
Rivian does not have carplay officially, some people have workarounds, but no Rivian doesn't support it.

  • Like
Reactions: 1
When the Volt came out many said they would not buy it because it lacked a sunroof. A sunroof was a must have for a car. I survived without one. For others, power seats were a must have. Cars are a combination of style, price, performance. Usually the buyer makes a choice based on a car that fits the majority of needs as few cars fit all the needs especially when looking for a lower price range.

For me, the Ultium platform (or another similar) is a must have. I keep cars a long time. I know from my Volt experience what happens when the battery starts having issues in years 10+. As batteries age, some cells can drop below "healthy" which can lead to the car being undriveable. People with perfectly good Volts are scrambling to try to find replacement batteries (or sections or modules). If the Volt used the Ultium platform, swapping in a new modules would be the answer and it would;d address a host of technical issues as well.

I'd rather have a car that's engineered to address battery aging gracefully. Tesla's approach is to replace the entire battery at a significant cost. Most of the other EV makers seem to be ignoring the potential "my 12 year old car is dead and must be junked because it was not designed to enable module replacements" issue.

Now if you plan to sell the car before the battery warranty is up (8 years, 100k miles whichever comes first), no need to worry about battery maintenance after warranty. That's also before you'd need to subscribe for continuing in dash navigation :)
A better analogy is GM is removing the individual buckets seats and center console and replacing them with a bench seat upholstered in the luxurious Naugahyde. That‘s the equivalent of dropping Car Play and Android Auto to me and I expect a lot others. Going to an EV is moving to the future, not going backwards.

To be honest, I don’t see a Cadillac doing very well dropping Car Play and Android Auto.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
A better analogy is GM is removing the individual buckets seats and center console and replacing them with a bench seat upholstered in the luxurious Naugahyde.
Perhaps. I'd say you have been bringing your own bucket seats, but now GM is going to supply the bucket seats instead and charge you after 8 years. :)

GM is saying the user experience will be better, more integrated. We shall see if that's the case.

Frankly, the big difference is there will be a subscription fee of some amount at some point. I'd rather not pay a subscription fee. Who would? On the other hand, I made my living selling a service based on subscription fees, lol.

Who knows, by the time year 8 comes around, maybe the UX will be so compelling and the subscription reasonable enough that I'll pay it. GM has its work cut out.
  • Like
Reactions: 2
Perhaps. I'd say you have been bringing your own bucket seats, but now GM is going to supply the bucket seats instead and charge you after 8 years. :)

GM is saying the user experience will be better, more integrated. We shall see if that's the case.

Frankly, the big difference is there will be a subscription fee of some amount at some point. I'd rather not pay a subscription fee. Who would? On the other hand, I made my living selling a service based on subscription fees, lol.

Who knows, by the time year 8 comes around, maybe the UX will be so compelling and the subscription reasonable enough that I'll pay it. GM has its work cut out.
But why should it be "either\or" instead of both? My (aftermarket) head unit has it's own software (with gps, player, BT, etc), and when you hook your phone up, an "Android auto" button appears, you can either choose to press it and activate AA, or stay on the system the head unit came with.

I'll tell you why, because they know they can't compete. It's not like AA or ACP are going to be the same 8 years from now. Gmaps already have an option to search for chargers on route (pretty new).

I trust FAANG software to stay relevant much more than I trust legacy auto software to stay relevant.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
21 - 40 of 68 Posts
Top